Transcript - S3 Ep4: Decisions, Decisions
Intro:
This is Mission: Commission [intro]
Melissa Smey:
This is Mission: Commission, a podcast where we demystify the process of how classical music gets made. I'm your host, Melissa Smey, and I'm the Artistic Director of Miller Theatre at Columbia University in New York City. On this show, I commissioned three composers to write new works of classical music and to do it in just six weeks.
Here we are in week four, and the composers are deep in the weeds of their individual pieces and the process of creating and shaping that piece means making many decisions, big and small. In this episode, I'll ask what guides those decisions?
Let's start with Ann Cleare.
Well, hello there.
Ann Cleare:
Hi, Melissa.
Melissa Smey:
Tell me about how this week has been for you.
Ann Cleare:
You know, it's been mixed. I've been trying to work intensely on the piece and try and really move forward with it. There have been good moments and difficult moments and it's kind of a mix, but I mean, that's the job really, I guess. It's persisting and there's moments where I'm like, "Yeah, this is going great." And moments where I'm like, "Oh, this isn't going the way it should be." [laughs]
I think this morning, actually, I really found a lot of clarity about…I think the form of the piece. It's funny because it's kind of the part of composing that I really love because my mind is very active and in a lot of ways it's very satisfying work. It can be frustrating, too, because you want to feel like the piece is really growing its own autonomy in a way. I'm trying to be patient, but also I suppose aware of the timeframe as well.
Melissa Smey:
Well, so you shared three audio diaries with us this week, and I wanted to start with the one that, where you're exploring this idea of mirror materials.
Ann Cleare:
So another structural material that I'm working with is what I'm calling, I guess, mirror material? This involves both pianos using a metal pipe that covers say, about an octave, and they both play this on the inside strings of the piano. I'm thinking that both pianos will play a rhythm and it'll become a kind of pattern, and so this pattern is derived from one of the improvisations I did with the microphone where I was moving the microphone, tracing the contours and patterns of the tree trunk. And so I've really filtered this a lot to get to the rhythm. So this is with the mic cross synthesized with the earth. [sounds, low then higher]
Then I've been filtering that down and it now sounds something like this. [sound with more warbles]
I'll play it again. [warble sound again]
It makes the rhythm easier to notate and work with.
Melissa Smey:
You had shared what was a cross filtered sample. I'm not sure where it was coming from, but the cross filtered and then when you played it in that way, there was this rhythm that became apparent that wasn't audible before you had applied those filters.
[sound with warbles, fading out]
And I listened to it like three or four times in a row trying to puzzle out, what was I hearing and how did you do that?
Ann Cleare:
I know, and I suppose for me it's almost a bit like improvising, too, with these materials. I keep working them and working them until I find something, even, say, rhythmically that feels like a way forward. It was a mixture of the rhythm of the microphone moving around the tree and shape it and trying to catch the contour of the tree, and then cross synthesizing that with more of the earth's recordings. Because the microphone moving, it's really slight and it's even hard to really capture the rhythm of it. So that was me, I suppose, trying to make it a bit more vivid for people and for myself so that then I can actually bring it into the piece.
Melissa Smey:
And so then another of the diaries, you were talking about harmonics on the piano and the idea that you'd been thinking about how one piano would represent below the earth and the other piano would represent the tree above, and then where they meet is the earth's surface.
Ann Cleare:
I've started to look into using harmonics on the piano. So this is where the pianist would lightly touch various nots along the string of a piano. So on the inside of the piano. And this changes the pitch that we hear. It filters it in a way. One of the pianos will use these harmonics quite a lot, and that would hopefully create a different timbre and an area more resonant timbre than the other piano.
So if I remind you of the geophone sound, [sound] so it has a harmony and I've filtered out a lot of the other sound information around the tones of the earth that I can hear.
And then if I think of using harmonics on the piano, I can play an example, so [piano note]
... and the next note would be ... [piano notes going up chromatically with effects]
So if you compare that to a standard piano key [clear piano note followed by piano note up an octave]
... you can hear there's quite a difference in the sounds. So I'm thinking that can be an area that I'm going to explore.
Melissa Smey:
Tell us some more about those harmonics and the effects that you're thinking of using in the piece.
Ann Cleare:
I'm working on that, but also realizing that it takes a lot of maneuvering as well. If Laura or Julia are to catch the harmonics as they play on the keys, it's not so easy. And then if I have other preparation inside the piano as well, it can interfere with this. So it's also this logistical planning involved. And also, I suppose just thinking visually, it's a big thing for, I think, someone to stand up from the piano and start moving their arms and hands inside. And it does have a lot of visual consequences for the piece. And especially because of this mirror idea as well. I'm trying to visually make it as effective as I can as well. Julia and Laura stand together and sit together, and maybe sometimes there's the opposite, but that I'm trying to pay attention to that because I know when you're at a live performance watching that, it can make the idea of the piece much more apparent to people when that visual information is also given attention.
Melissa Smey:
Absolutely right. No, it's so funny the ways in which audiences experience music as much with their eyes as with their ears, and that idea of the inherent theatricality, even from the first moment when a musician walks out onto the stage and have they captured the audience's attention and imagination?
Well, so your last audio diary had you back at your beautiful oak tree and you shared a photo with us, so thank you. It's beautiful. What a beautiful tree.
Ann Cleare:
Yeah, it is, yeah.
Melissa Smey:
Here's a fun and challenging question. How are you feeling about the timeline for our project?
Ann Cleare:
Today I'm feeling positive. Yesterday I wasn't feeling as positive, so I think it changes hourly. [laughs]
Melissa Smey:
And do you think, is it a function of this six-week timeline or when you're making other pieces do you have this moment regardless of the timeline? I'm curious, is it specific to this or it's every project?
Ann Cleare:
I think it's every project really. It's like, for me anyway, I could easily go on exploring forever.
I could happily do that without ever making decisions. It's also feels good to make decisions.
[theme music]
Melissa Smey:
Well, I think that's a good place for us to pause. Thanks so much, Ann.
Ann Cleare:
Thank you.
Melissa Smey:
Our next composer is Wang Lu.
Well, hello there, Lu.
Wang Lu:
Hello, Melissa.
Melissa Smey:
How are you?
Wang Lu:
I'm good, yeah, yeah.
Melissa Smey:
Well, so let me ask you, how has the piece evolved this week?
Wang Lu:
Yeah, this week I had new ideas. [laughs]
Melissa Smey:
I love that. Is that a good thing or not a good thing?
[MUSIC – AUDIO DIARY, LU IMPROVISING AT THE PIANO]
Wang Lu:
I think it's a good thing.
Well, I like when I'm able to generate a lot of material, then I have the choice, of course, to slaughter most of them. It's better than focusing, I said, it's better than focusing on very little and train myself to believe it's gold.
Melissa Smey:
Sure.
Wang Lu:
It's not.
Melissa Smey:
Yes.
Wang Lu:
So, I had different ideas. If you remember, we started, I was like, "Oh, it's about the pandemic. It's walking and all that." But I think the new idea's faster, but it's also has the drive and momentum.
[MUSIC CONT. – AUDIO DIARY, LU IMPROVISING AT THE PIANO]
I think I did have something to do with me getting to know more what Vicky Chow plays, what she likes to play.
Melissa Smey:
So I'm curious, this new idea, what was the impetus? Was it talking to Vicky? Was it listening to some of her samples? Was it something else?
Wang Lu:
I've been listening to her recordings. We exchange voice messages. Yes, all of that. But also I'm trying to figure out a way to show what the pianist actually does, what she's able to do the best. On the other hand, her work has this effect of making it sound pretty modern. I'm thinking, how do I push this to a more--another layer of sound with percussion, or maybe prepared piano? So it has this space between nature--You can think of nature sound, like water sound…For instance it's very fluid and running, with things and up and down--But if the timbre changes or the noise was added, this could also sound very much like with noise or even digital sound.
So I'm going between the traditional way of playing on the keyboard and possibly producing things without live electronics. We're not doing electronics of something that is less romantic piano sounding.
Melissa Smey:
Where is nostalgia fitting in for you right now? You talked a little bit about some very nostalgic ideas and remembrances and the idea that there might be a halo around the sound or a distortion on the sound as a way to potentially evoke this idea of nostalgia. Has that gone away?
Wang Lu:
No, it's still there. I'm glad you remind me that was the idea. [laughs] So, as of this week, the resonance will focus on when there are fewer notes.
Melissa Smey:
Yeah.
Wang Lu:
Fewer notes have more resonance. When there's running, have more notes, as I was just saying, I'm trying to get less resonant, but more noise and more metallic sound, maybe combined with percussion. So it some ... more like that with pitches. And then when the single notes or two notes with the resonance, it's still more like a song, like the halo of sound arises. That's where the nostalgia is still there. It's almost like searching through an inventory or index digitally and then finding this piece of memory. I'm kind of like imagine how the gears inside an early computer would work with all those sounds.
Melissa Smey:
It's a funny duality I guess, or a funny juxtaposition in your practice. And I think it didn't come to me until we had the opportunity to have these conversations. Because understanding the ways in which nostalgia and memory and place and the way that you're trying to evoke that in your music has become very real to me through the course of these conversations. And when we were working together on your Composer Portrait, what I liked about your music there, certainly there was emotion, but there was a real rigor there. And the incorporation of electronics and manipulation of the notes and just a sense of --that there was an architectural underpinning or a rigor to your approach.
It's interesting now that this whole other world and insight into your practice has been opened up. Hearing you talk about your influences and how you're balancing those, right? So this idea that you might try to incorporate a feeling of electronics without any electronics at all, it's one of the things that's so rewarding about these conversations is to get to know more about you and your work.
Wang Lu:
Oh, thank you. I think this duality, you're right, I rarely have a piece that only has one kind of sound or idea. I like to deal with the contrast and transition. I don't enjoy the most staying in one place and contemplate. A couple pieces like that, but most of them not. I enjoy the writing process the most is when I dive into the material, of course, working the material, but also pull myself out, just keeping the distance is very important. So I spend time with the material and then I leave them and I have to constantly find ways to pull myself out of it. It's like if you don't record yourself talking, right, you don't hear your yourself.
Melissa Smey:
Yes.
Wang Lu:
And then how do you keep an objective relationship with your material? It's impossible because you get to know them so well as you work through them, and then you have this familiarity and it changes your cognition. So I try to work as different music. It just happens to be yesterday I started my first tabla lesson.
[AUDIO DIARY – LU’S TABLA LESSON]
Wang Lu:
I always wanted to learn it because we have this wonderful faculty working in our department. And it's something that’s very removed from my work, but has its own system, and you can practice by embodying the rhythm, right? Before you are able to even make a sound, you can also practice mentally by understanding the mathematical rhythm behind, right? So repeat this, repeat that. Even a couple syllables, and how they just keep going as a variation. Yeah, I like those experience. Then I come back to my composition, which is not trying to incorporate tabla at all. Then somehow my mind is refreshed. You see?
Melissa Smey:
Curious about a couple of things about the audio diary from Russell Greenberg this week where he's playing a variety of tam-tam sounds.
[AUDIO DIARY – PERCUSSION SOUNDS]
Melissa Smey:
When you were listening to it, how was it feeding into what you were thinking about the piece?
Wang Lu:
It's feeding into my imagination. First I listen to the quality of the sound.
Melissa Smey:
Yes.
Wang Lu:
Is it a clear strike or is it just like a feeding in of something? I listen to the pitch content. I think about, do I use it? Because we're not live processing--this is the sound. I think about how I incorporate this or imagine this with this noise aspect, the dissonance with the pitch aspect or, is this is like a life of the sound? Should I cut it off? Or should I let it live? And how much time it takes, if that is the pacing of that moment, is that a slower or faster music? And would that be felt as slow or faster? Because this object can be 10 seconds, but can be felt as 20 seconds or 6 seconds. So I think about this in relation to the piano ideas I have.
So when I improvise on the piano, I don't have percussion. So I leave some space in the piano improvisation. And then in my head I try to think about these sounds. So in this process you're asking me where I am. I am generating more ideas, and there is this original, nostalgic, more lyrical with melody and chords. And this one, the new one is more virtuosic, is fast, and I was trying vibraphone, the marimba before. Now I'm trying tam-tam, I think maybe pitched bells. We'll decide on that. And right now, the guiding principle is that the virtuosity on the piano somehow can sound more electronic without electronics.
Melissa Smey:
Okay. Well so, you definitely have some decisions to make, and you've talked about how something that helps is to spend some time away from the material. Any other methods that you use as you're working to finalize some ideas about what the piece will be?
Wang Lu:
We listen to music on the headphones most of the time. Most people, especially younger generation, they have a relationship with music through digital access, right? And it's also very personal. So how the music is perceived, right, affects how I process this. The piano centered, but what if I wanted to be digitally panned, like left, right, without two pianos. How do you make that illusion or even possible to make people listen that way. Either on their headphones or sitting in the concert hall? And I also think about things like the venue.
Melissa Smey:
I always think of that as the additional member of any ensemble, right? You're making a piece for two musicians, but the venue in which it will be performed is in fact the third member of the ensemble.
Wang Lu:
Yeah. Absolutely. If it's not the first member. It's the hall. It's the acoustic, but also it's the culture. I cannot say Miller Theatre is a place I don't know, I'm just writing for that size and that specific sound. No, because that's somewhere I've been to many times and I have relationship. I grew myself since 18 years ago, listening to the first concert there. That is part of the piece. It is not in isolation.
Melissa Smey:
Good. Well, let me ask you, because we are now in week four. Let me ask how you're feeling about our timeline.
Wang Lu:
I think deadlines are wonderful and I like these tight deadlines. I think we're doing very well.
Melissa Smey:
Good. I absolutely think so. So I'm glad that you agree.
Wang Lu:
Wonderful. Thank you.
Melissa Smey:
Our next composer is Miguel Zenón.
Well, hello there, Miguel.
Miguel Zenón:
Hey, how's it going?
Melissa Smey:
Nice to chat with you. Tell us about what stage you are in your process right now.
Miguel Zenón:
So I'm kind of gliding along. Last week I started inputting some stuff into the computer and listening back. That's a big thing for me. And I feel like I'm in that groove now. I've got into a spot, probably a little further along than what I uploaded already, maybe about three minutes, three and a half maybe into the piece where there's going to be some kind of open section for improvisation and the whole thing's built up to there.
Spent a lot of time inputting the information, listening back, tailoring things, changing one note here, adding a measure here. Just getting it to a place. There's still things that are probably going to change. But I feel like now I've gotten to a spot where I basically, I already know what the piece is going to be. I can kind of see it. I just have to get there and write it.
Melissa Smey:
So, if I can make a roller coaster analogy, let's see if it fits. Going up the hill of the rollercoaster, it's like up, up, up, up and the machine is working up, up, up and then you get to the top and you have this amazing view, and then it's smooth sailing all the rest of the way.
Miguel Zenón:
I don't know about smooth sailing, [laughs] some kind of sailing. I think the most difficult thing for me when putting together music like this, it's the sequence of events. So once the narrative is clear, it's not that it's easy, but it's like, okay, I just need to do it.
Melissa Smey:
What I loved about what you shared this week is that, well, two things. So one is that the material that you're thinking about for the guitar is more fleshed out than it was in the previous diaries. And then there's this amazing moment where the piano tumbles down this descending figure, and then there is rhythm. It's amazing. And you've talked so much about rhythm and how important it is to you. And I have to say, I listened to that segment multiple times trying to understand what was there. And so the beauty of this podcast is that we get to ask you and you can tell us.
[AUDIO DIARY – FINALE PLAYBACK OF MIGUEL’S DRAFT]
Tell us a bit about what you were thinking when you were creating this segment that we're hearing.
Miguel Zenón:
Right, right. So I think early on I was talking about those chords that were really the first thing I wrote that were written in a very systematic kind of way using these intervals and those dates that we talked about. So once the chords were there, I mean, they're pretty crunchy chords and they're not really practical or tonal. So I was trying to think about a melodic idea that could maybe be a little more lyrical and could sound a little more, and on its own way, semi tonal and have less of a disjointed feel of personality to it. So I was playing the chords and a lot of times what I do when I'm trying to come up with melodies a lot, I'll sit at the piano and then I'll sing melodies on top, or I'll sing shapes.
Melissa Smey:
Yes.
Miguel Zenón:
So I was sitting and do, do, di, di, do, di. So I'm singing the shapes and I'm making the shapes fit the chords a lot of times or fit what I think of the description of the chord or the sonority.
So basically that guitar melody is that, just me sitting at the piano and writing a shape and then tailoring the melody with the chords that are there. So for me, that melody is the melodic statement of the piece. And the plan, just looking ahead, is for this melodic statement to reappear in certain portions later on. When I wrote this, I mean, it's notated pretty specifically, but the feeling that I was looking for is for it to feel almost improvised--the melody. To feel like rhythmically is, the more things that are more related to a grid or to a subdivision, they're going to come in the next section.
Melissa Smey:
Well, so let's listen to the second half.
[AUDIO DIARY – FINALE PLAYBACK OF MIGUEL’S DRAFT]
Tell us about what we heard there.
Miguel Zenón:
So coming out of the first segment that we heard the melody get to a certain spot, and then he stops on the last chord of the second sequence after the modulation. I was here, so this is going to go into some kind of subdivision, but I didn't want that to happen right away. I wanted to hint at a bunch of different subdivisions before settling into something. So it starts with this figure, it's a five note figure that turns into a six note figure that goes back to five notes. So it's going back and forth, is it going to be this, is it going to be this, is it going to be this? And then eventually it kind of settles. And when it kind of settles, then you'll hear these bass notes that are actually being doubled by the guitar - boom, boom, boom, boom-boom.
And that's giving it a little forward motion. Then it slows down for a second, then it goes back. I like that feeling, you get this, okay, so we're going, but we're not, we're going, we’re not. And then after a while it starts going again and turns into this faster sort of arpeggiated figures.
And playing around with note choices. So there's a lot of times when you have an upper pedal, something that's being hit constantly, there's a lot of As, for example, in that first piano figure, and then there's some later on. But then that moves maybe up a half step, down a half step, and it dictates a few different things.
Melissa Smey:
And what I love about it is it has point and counterpoint and rhythm and the hint of melody, and it's like a puzzle for the listener. What is it that I'm hearing here, right? Because there's the content, but then it's how it's perceived by the listener. And so that's what I just find so engaging about your music. And so that's really fun about getting an insight into the Legos of how this piece is coming together. I definitely also had an insight into something that you'd said earlier about, you have this community of musicians that you work with and that you're making different decisions as a composer depending on the musicians for whom you are writing. And when I hear this, it's obvious why that is the case.
Miguel Zenón:
I've been working on this and there's always a point, especially if it's written for an instrument that I don't play really well, I'm always thinking, okay, is this going to be cool? And so a couple of days ago I actually sent Matt and Miles, basically what I have. And I just like, "Man, take a look. Let me know what you think. Let me know if it looks okay, if anything is not--if it's too fast, if it's too many notes, if it's anything out of range." And I got the okay on both sides. The response that I got was like, "It's not going to be easy, but it's playable." [laughs]
Melissa Smey:
I love that. And so you're making so many decisions right now, right? There's still a lot left, so you can see the piece, but there's still a lot left until it's done. How are you making the decisions about yes, this is staying, no, this isn't staying. Talk us through that a little bit.
Miguel Zenón:
I feel like now that I have a clear picture of the road ahead in terms of events, so I go by sections and I know what I want it to sound like already. I just have to get to a point where it's matching what I hear.
Melissa Smey:
Yes.
Miguel Zenón:
A lot of it is trial and error at this point in time. As a matter of fact, there's one section, we didn't get to that section now, it’s coming right after this, that is probably going to change.
Melissa Smey:
Hmm, tell me why.
Miguel Zenón:
This is a section where it starts with these piano chords that are very rhythmic - beep, beep, boom, boom ... and the guitar playing ... this kind of lines. So there's something that happens right after that. I think it goes ... It's very, pulse and very 16 notey kind of thing. But the first time that happened, I remember I just had it one time and then I was like, "Yeah, I think I want to hear that again." So I wrote it again and basically just changed the orchestration on the piano a little bit. I didn't really like it, so I think what I'm going to do is I'm going to reorchestrate the first time it happens with counterpoint on the piano. So you'll have three lines going, but basically three part counterpoint, and then the second time, then you'll hear it with the chords. This is something that I enjoy very much, this idea of writing based on linear things as opposed to vertical harmony.
Melissa Smey:
You're so focused in terms of your process and you make a plan early and you follow through. And it seems, definitely that's why you're able to make such quick progress with this piece. I mean, it's only been four weeks. But I'm curious if you could think of a time or a piece when you had to change your mind or you had to depart from your plan and how that might have changed the piece or changed the outcome for the work.
Miguel Zenón:
Yeah, of course. I mean, that happens all the time. It happened on this piece, already a couple times. This section that I was just talking about now that I'm going to go back and revise. But I remember a while ago I wrote some music for a big band, and the music was a blown up version of stuff that we're doing with the quartet already. So I wrote it for quartet first, and then I blowed it up for the large ensemble. It was this big project that had to do with national identity and all that stuff. And there was one piece where I had this idea of writing this long background passage for the trombones
[MUSIC – “MY HOME” BY MIGUEL ZENÓN]
And it was almost like a thing where one trombone would play and then the other one come in and it'd be constant.
[MUSIC CONT. – “My Home” BY MIGUEL ZENÓN]
And I wrote the whole thing out, it took me a really long time to write it. And I remember from the first rehearsal, we started playing it and I had amazing players and they were all like, "Listen, there's too much. We don't have anywhere to breathe. It's too much. I mean, it's too much on the chops." And then I realized, of course, they're playing for a minute and a half nonstop. So we had to basically come up with a solution, and the solution was basically alternating, so there will always be two trombones playing, and every other time one player would rest and then another one would come in. So it would be two.
Melissa Smey:
Swap in.
Miguel Zenón:
But I remember when we got to the rehearsal, I was like, "Yeah, you're totally right. I didn't think." [laughs] Honestly, it's one of the disadvantages of using these software programs, which are great for feedback, but a lot of times it's easy to get lost in the human versus computer thing, which is one of the reasons why I sent these guys the music a couple days ago. I was like, man, I want to make sure that this is going to be okay because it sounds great on Finale, but I want to make sure that this is going to be cool.
I like to take my time and make sure everything is looking good. And so, yeah, I'm feeling okay. I'm feeling like I'm in a good place.
Melissa Smey:
I feel like we're in a good place, too. Thank you for making the time.
Miguel Zenón:
It's my pleasure. My pleasure. Thank you so much.
[theme music]
Melissa Smey:
Mission: Commission is a production of Miller Theatre at Columbia University.
Major support for Mission: Commission is provided by the Francis Goelet Charitable Lead Trusts. Support for Miller Theatre is provided by the New York State Council on the Arts and the Howard Gilman Foundation.
Additional support is provided by the National Endowment for the Arts. Support for contemporary music at Miller Theatre is provided by the Aaron Copland Fund for Music and the Amphion Foundation.
This episode was produced by Golda Arthur and me, with Adrienne Stortz, Lauren Cognetti, and Taylor Riccio. Erick Gomez is our sound designer and engineer.
This episode featured audio excerpts of pieces written by Ann Cleare, Wang Lu, and Miguel Zenón.
Visit missioncommissionpodcast.com for a full listing of pieces, performers, and recordings included in this and every episode.
Thanks for listening.
