Transcript - S1 Ep 2: The Collaborators
This is Mission: Commission [intro]
Melissa Smey:
Welcome to Mission: Commission, a podcast demystifying the process of how classical music gets made. I'm Melissa Smey and I'm the Artistic Director of Miller Theatre at Columbia University. At Miller Theatre, we commission new music by world-class composers, bringing joy, reflection, and curiosity to listeners. On this podcast, we're following the creative journey of three composers as they create vibrant new works of classical music. And in this episode, I'm talking to our composers about collaboration.
Collaboration is where the magic happens. It's one of the most fulfilling aspects of a relationship that there can be. And it's what I always strive for. It can mean different things to different people, but at its heart, a truly collaborative relationship needs give and take. Listening as well as responding, and the most beautiful collaborations in music are often built on one thing: improvisation. You need to be really skilled to be a gifted improviser.
On our first episode, you met our composers: Marcos Balter in New York, Courtney Bryan in New Orleans, and Augusta Read Thomas in Chicago. In this episode, I'm talking to our composers about the importance of collaboration in their creative process and the role of improvisation as they begin to work on their commissions. Marcos, Courtney, and Gusty have also been keeping an audio diary, a way to chart how their creative journeys are developing.
Here, at the start of this process, we begin with Marcos Balter. Marcos is working on a piece for solo harp with musician, Parker Ramsay.
Marcos Balter:
So here it goes, my very first memo for the Miller Theatre new commission. And I'm really excited to write something for Parker. Working with him, or working with anyone, right now is odd because a lot of what I do involves, you know, being with people, and spending time with people, and trying sounds out, you know, side-by-side. And, of course, that none of this can happen now. So I don't know how this collaboration will unfold and how much nuance I can get out of Zoom calls. But, it's a new challenge and challenges sometimes can be fun. And I think that the whole idea behind this, you know, Mission: Commission initiative is to really sort of focus on challenge, itself. So, here it goes nothing!
Melissa Smey:
Hi Marcos, you've made a start on this project. And in your audio diary, you talked about your collaboration with Parker. Tell me a little more about where you're at at this stage.
Marcos Balter:
Sure. So I've had a couple of talks with Parker. We've had some really fun Zoom meetings, which he just basically got a bunch of objects out and tried different things, you know, on the harp.
Parker Ramsay:
If you take a tuning fork with rounded edges, you basically reduce the surface area on the string. [Plucking harp strings with a tuning fork] There's that. I mean, another thing is that's really great to do on the lower strings, it requires continual vibrations, is tremolo effect. But if you stop the fundamental pitch on the gut string… [continual plucking at harp strings].
Marcos Balter:
Whoa! Good tremolo!
Parker Ramsay:
So maybe, so if I did this [continues plucking harp strings].
Marcos Balter:
That!
Parker Ramsay:
There it is!
Marcos Balter:
That!
Parker Ramsay:
That's what you're looking for!
Marcos Balter:
Yes!
Marcos Balter:
And we are sort of free forming, you know, the sonic universe of the piece [continued plucking harp strings]. The main thing now is to, sort of, sort out what is potentially an interesting idea and what is just a gimmick, you know? [Continued plucking harp strings] To see what really resonates, rather than what really fascinates, you know. And then, you know, from there, I intend to develop the piece.
Melissa Smey:
Can you tell me a little bit more about what that Zoom conversation was like? You know, what those early conversations have been like, because you've written for harp, but you haven't written for solo harp and you haven't worked with Parker before. Tell me a little bit about what that's like.
Marcos Balter:
We don't know each other that extensively, but we're not completely strangers, which helps quite a lot, at least for my collaborative process. It does help to know people. The more I know, the more I know what to do. So, you know, we was a little bit of a getting to know you -- like getting the tone right, you know, getting the conversation tone even right. Yeah. And then getting to sort of understand Parker's physical relationship with his harp or his harps, I should say. It's less what can you do with the instrument and more of a, what feels good in your body on exploring this instrument? You know, what are the movements that you're not necessarily exploring every day, but that are, you know, ready to be used and ready to be tapped and explored?
Melissa Smey:
Yeah. And it's funny, it's one of the aspects I like a lot about when a composer is writing a piece for a specific musician or a specific ensemble, I always like to use the analogy of a bespoke, tailored suit. And so you can pick the fabric, you're going to have the sleeve fit properly to your arm. If you want a super tailored pant leg, you can have it. And the idea that that suit of clothes will make you look like a million bucks and you'll feel great. And so that's something that I always love about when a composer and musician pairing —that they're making something it's not just for the instrument it's for the person. And then the special thing that you bring to the work that you create is that it's also about the nature of the relationship with the person, right? So it kind of surpasses that idea of composer and musician. There's something really personal in the partnership that comes to life.
Marcos Balter:
And I've been trying to make things even more personal. The place where I'm at, mentally speaking, these days, you know, is that, you know, I'm trying to make any kind of music interaction that I do to feel as non-hierarchical as possible, you know? There's no, you know, me composer, and let me just give it to you, you know, what you have to play and find ways of creating meaningful and, you know, equitable space for everybody. So that will probably be my next challenge is to find the medium. I was going to say language, but I hate associating language with music.
Melissa Smey:
So I'm curious then, where is Parker with that? Is improvisation part of his practice as a musician, or this is new for him and the two of you will be figuring it out together?
Marcos Balter:
I do not know because I haven't had that direct conversation with him. I've been insinuating that this might be, you know, a way that we may go, but I have never really, sort of, you know, asked him overtly that question. But on demonstrating things to me, he was, in fact, improvising quite a lot, you know, and talking about specific gestures and talking about specific possibilities. He spent about an hour improvising for me. I don't know if he would, necessarily, consciously call that, you know, improvising, but he was in fact doing it. So I was like, "ah! He can!"
Melissa Smey:
I love it! No, and that's something that it kind of is discovered in the process of the collaboration of making a piece.
Marcos Balter:
True. True.
Melissa Smey:
You know, and did you have the sense of that going into it or you uncovered it along the way?
Marcos Balter:
Well, I think that everybody has the capacity of improvising. And of course, that improvisation is something that you have to train just as much as anything else, you know, in order to become, you know, a virtuoso improviser, if you will.
Melissa Smey:
This idea of improvisation, it's interesting because when I think about all of the musicians and the ensembles that I work with across the range of series; there's such a spectrum of where people are in terms of their comfort level with improvisation, right? And so I'm curious from your perspective, if you can say a little more about why it would be that some people are hesitant about it, or that there is a hesitancy about it, or a kind of like, that feels like an unknown.
Marcos Balter:
I actually think that it has a lot to do with our training when we think of, you know, the quote-unquote "classical musician," you know, and what are the things that we are taught as essential tools to our practice— which is funny, of course, because historically speaking improvisation is absolutely not new. It's one of the oldest things, if not the oldest thing. But, you know, maybe in the past 200 years or so, improvisation started to become erased, more and more and more erased. And this idea of connections between music and syntax, and music and language, hence my fear of using the word "language" yet again, has, you know, contributed to this devaluing of improvisation. And also a lot of the cultural framing of what music, and what good music, and what good Western European music is and its relation with improvisation.
Melissa Smey:
Yeah. No, and I think at the same time there's this kind of artificial divide between what it means to be a composer and a musician, because if you look back, you know, Bach and Mozart were practicing musicians. They were playing the music that they were writing, and they were doing both at the same time. And then this idea that somehow they separated and you were a composer or a musician, and somehow those two things were different. And that has always puzzled me as such an artificial distinction.
Marcos Balter:
Absolutely. I mean, even how we approach improvisation that existed as improvisation back then, it's quite different, right? I mean, when you talk to soloists, you know, traditional soloists that play concerti, you know, classical era concerti, and they're like "Oh! I am playing such and such's cadenza for the Mozart, you know, concerto." When it was written, you know, as where now, a cadenza was an improvised cadenza, right?
Melissa Smey:
Correct! That's exactly right! And then it would be a showpiece, it'd be your chance to shine. And just what you try to harness in the musicians that you're working with, where you want to create a frame for them to create something that they're showing off the best of what they can do—that's exactly what a cadenza was meant for, right?
Marcos Balter:
Exactly.
Melissa Smey:
Like "look at what I can do!" Yeah, it's interesting. But it's definitely in the field, it's definitely shifting, right? Because so many of the ensembles that certainly that I work with on our new music series, they are improvising musicians, right? They have a full range of practice there, and it's not the sense that "I can only play notated music. And that I don't, I'm not comfortable with improvisation or I can't do it." And it's refreshing.
Marcos Balter:
Absolutely. One of the best concerts that I saw I believe last year, although time doesn't exist anymore, was the Anthony Braxton celebration at Miller Theatre. Which was fantastic.
[MUSIC - "COMPOSITION NO. 358" BY ANTHONY BRAXTON]
What I love about the way that Braxton approaches improvisation is that it gives performers agency, of course.
Melissa Smey:
Yes.
Marcos Balter:
But it creates a very palpable, a very felt network. You feel the connections being made, and it's such an interesting and exciting, dramatic narrative. You know, to feel that way, which is something that is completely different than the sort of linear discourse of non-improvisatory music, which I also love, but the energy feels different.
Melissa Smey:
So Marcos tell us, you know, you're working on this project with Parker, tell us what kind of collaborator you are.
Marcos Balter:
It depends on who I'm collaborating with, right? I mean, I'm Marcos. Period. You know, and this is it. But how I interact with people depends on the person. You know, like each relationship is a relationship. And that's why, you know, part of establishing a quote-unquote "successful," you know, path within a collaboration, it really depends on knowing the person. But it's really important for me and it's becoming more and more important for me to feel, you know, physically, you know, emotionally, artistically, personally comfortable with the person in order to—and trust the person, you know, that the person trusts me as well, in order to create some kind of a collaborative structure that works for us. And it's important for me as a, you know, a self-imposed exercise to always be vigilant and not confuse cooperation with collaboration. To understand, you know, when it's time for us to speak together and when it's time for me to shut up and listen to Parker. This give-and-take dance is very much part of, you know, a lot of what I am interested in doing. So it's not that everything is collaborative from beginning to the end, but everything is consensual and everything is done in a way in which nobody is at any given point erased.
Melissa Smey:
Our next composer is Courtney Bryan. Courtney has been recording her audio diary as a voice memo and sharing them with her collaborator and friend, Andrae Murchison, who's based in Savannah, Georgia. Andrae is doing the same. And their first audio diaries for us have developed into a voice memo conversation between the two of them where they share their thoughts on the theme of synchronicity.
Courtney Bryan:
Hi, Andrae. I'm thinking about the word "synchronicity." So yeah, I'm interested to hear what comes to mind for you when you think of synchronicity.
Andrae Murchison:
Hey, Courtney. I just want to respond to your thoughts on synchronicity and share my thoughts.
Courtney Bryan:
When I think of synchronicity, I think about the feeling of things happening at the same time or in rhythm with each other. I guess I think of rhythm.
Andrae Murchison:
I think synchronicity is harmony.
Courtney Bryan:
When you're talking with someone and you just blurt out the same thing at the same time. Like you're just in sync. You know, you're on the same rhythm.
Andrae Murchison:
It's evident in our texting. Sometimes it's so deep that it happens simultaneously.
Courtney Bryan:
Another interesting thing that we've talked about is with the psalms, so like reading the psalms and sending different songs to one another, that are where we are at the moment.
Andrae Murchison:
And we also have mutual values. We honor family and our music ministry is similar where it is founded in church. And it's on a similar destination for freedom.
Courtney Bryan:
I'm also interested in synchronicity just like if I'm walking around and I see things with numbers. So like I know numbers mean a lot to me.
Andrae Murchison:
I also have the same interest in numerical signs and meanings.
Courtney Bryan:
They start to mean certain things. If I see the number "616," it usually means it's time to focus on family.
Andrae Murchison:
The number "4", which means loyalty, patience, wisdom, and trust.
Courtney Bryan:
If I see "818," it means don't worry about the past.
Andrae Murchison:
And also the number "66," which means unconditional love, faith, trust, and healing.
Courtney Bryan:
So I'm interested in synchronicity.
Andrae Murchison:
Reflecting on the word synchro-nicity.
Melissa Smey:
Hello Courtney. So you've been keeping an audio diary for us recording a couple of minutes each week to chart how you're moving through this creative process. And also to show how you're thinking about this piece and your collaborator, Andrae Murchison is doing the same. You guys talk to each other in these diaries, which is so great to hear. This week, your diary was triggered by a post that Andrae put on Instagram. Tell me about what that post was and why it made an impression on you.
Courtney Bryan:
It was Psalm's 116:6. I was thinking about light. And a lot of that is conversations with him, with Andrae. And also some of the other things I've been thinking about, and other projects, just thinking about light. Yeah, it got me thinking more like light and how we think about each of us having our own light, and how you can choose to hide that light or to share that light. And how sometimes people like to borrow other people's light, if they don't feel like they can access theirs. So just those kinds of conversations that we've been having about, you know, the importance of one having one's light.
Melissa Smey:
I'm curious, do you think about how you could translate this idea of light into sound, into your music, and what might that sound like?
Courtney Bryan:
Yeah, thanks for that question, Melissa. Because that's a way that I've been, like, that I've been working in recent times as if I'm improvising with someone I know I've been more interested in coming up with words that are, kind of, you know, that evoke different image or sound and we'll have discussions about those words. And then whatever comes up musically is based on that more so than discussing like form, or melody, or rhythm, you know, directly.
Or maybe light could be different, like running figures [rapid, repeating patterns on the piano]. And maybe light could be, I don't know, certain held notes, like the same kind of thing but [sustained chord on the piano x2].
Melissa Smey:
It's interesting to see how a post that he put on Instagram came around full circle. And it's inspiring this moment for the two of you in the life of this new piece.
Courtney Bryan:
That's true. Yeah, also it was not directly connected to our project but he shared with me a chord progression he came up with earlier in the week. And I remember thinking, it sounded like rays of light.
Andrae Murchison:
[chord progression on piano] Alright. A harmonic ray of light.
Melissa Smey:
It's funny. So that was what I was going to ask next. Does it, can that inspiration flow both ways? So you're inspired by a psalm or that idea of light, but then when you hear something, does that also trigger an idea or an inspiration? So it can, it sounds like it can go both directions.
Courtney Bryan:
It definitely could go both directions. And for me, because I've been thinking about this and other projects, I have certain ideas on the piano that I think of when I think of maybe light. If I picture flashing lights, I might do some sort of arpeggiated figures at the top of the piano.
Melissa Smey:
Yeah. So Courtney, I want to ask you about the role of the composer. And so in this project, you're collaborating so closely with Andrae. And in many ways you're co-creating the piece, co-creating language, you know, co-creating a sound universe. And so I'm curious how you think about in this process, how you think about the role of composer.
Courtney Bryan:
I was actually thinking about this while I was having my coffee this morning. Because it is something I think about a lot. I feel like sometimes in projects, I'm a composer in a traditional sense of like, no matter where I get my inspiration from, you know, the idea, it's the idea of me creating original music as a composer—soloist—a solo composer. And I've also done a lot of collaborative work where the whole, that pressure of composer in that way isn't really like the main factor. It's kind of like, say if I'm in a theater context, maybe I'm more of a facilitator, like a music facilitator, so we're all, like, gathering ideas. And so it's interesting in a project like this, and other projects I do that are more collaborative, how I just enjoy that process. Like I enjoy the back and forth. Or I enjoy if I am writing a piece for somebody that they're a part of that, you know, the actual music creation, because you're writing it for them or with them. The end of it is to produce something made out of this material we came up together that is my take, that would be like my composition based on both of our ideas. But yeah, this is something I think about a lot, because I'm very into like, credit for original work. And I'm trying to figure out in collaborative things, how you go about doing it with like, what's the best words to show, you know, how things are created.
Melissa Smey:
Yeah. No, well, and I think the idea of the solitary composer can be a pretty limiting nomenclature, right? And I don't think it reflects the true nature of collaboration of how music gets made. And so it's interesting to hear you talking through how you're grappling with that idea, because it's such a reflection of your practice. That collaborative nature and, you know, building things in communication with other people, in collaboration with other people. It's nice to be able to, through, you know, the process of this podcast, to be able to share insights into that and help people understand what it means to be a composer, a creative artist, a musician who is working now today.
Courtney Bryan:
That's right. Yeah. Thank you. That's gotta be another thought for the week or the couple of weeks coming up too.
Melissa Smey:
Good. I love it.
And now to Augusta Read Thomas or "Gusty" for short. Gusty collected her opening thoughts about the piece she's working on in her first audio diary.
Augusta Read Thomas:
So writing a piece for solo percussion is quite compelling to me because it captures a relationship with a sound world that I've been thinking about for decades.
Now, what I've been doing is thinking about what instrumentation do I want. And I have kind of started to form in my mind that I want to do a two movement piece so that I can show contrast. The first movement it would, or, I don't know the order of them actually, to be honest. But, like, one movement would be slow and resonant. And one of the things I had proposed to Melissa was some, maybe, like, vibraphone and crotales, you know, just very tiny setup [musical phrase on vibraphone].
And then I thought I would do a second movement, which would be fast and rhythmic because a lot of my music has a lot of groove to it. And it's a big part of my syntax, this rhythmic world that comes from all the listening I've done to jazz over the past, you know, 40 years. And I was thinking for the fast movement, maybe to do just marimba and drums so that you get the wood and the skins whereas the first movement is the metals. And so you have this contrast. But I haven't really gotten to the second movement to be honest.
Now in doing this, one of the things that all artists want, or I want to know, is who am I writing for? Like, who's the actual player? And what are they like? And what are they good at? And how do they play? I mean, are they a mechanical player? Or are they an expressive player? So we discussed about working with my colleague, John Corkill, who's in the ensemble I founded called the Grossman Ensemble. And I've worked with him on many projects. He's a young percussionist in Chicago, basically freelance. So we’ve sort of been dancing around doing a piece together. So when this came up from Melissa, I just thought, "well, this is a great chance to work with John."
Melissa Smey:
So hello, Gusty. It's so great to be speaking with you. You've been recording an audio diary for us and in this very first one, you talked about the importance of knowing at the start, who you are writing your music for and how they play. So tell me a little bit more about the percussionist you're working with on this piece.
Augusta Read Thomas:
There's a percussionist in Chicago named John Corkill, who I've known for a long time, and he's a great player --beautiful technique, can play anything, very artful, very musical, he's creative, and he's detailed because my scores are extremely nuanced. Every note has a dynamic, and an articulation, and an adjective, and a reason, and 26 other reasons why it had to be right there, and it has to be on the backbeat, or it has to be in the upbeat, or it has to be with a different mallet and, you know, all of these specific things. And he is an artist that will look at my notations and say, "Oh yeah! I see why she wants the softer mallet there," and "I understand why she wants the tempo change here," and he'll woodshed it, and learn it, and play it with great artistry. And because I make all of my music as spontaneous improvisations myself, I want the pieces to sound like they're being played like improvisations, despite the fact that they're highly notated. And I think that for John Corkill to get into my sounds and play them like with the inner life with which I built them, is something that I want. And that's something he's capable of doing. It's not just, "okay, I'll play her notes. The notes are down." It's a deeper thing for me as a composer. And he channels into that as a performer and makes deep performances.
Melissa Smey:
And so actually, I'm curious, what have your conversations been like so far with John Corkill?
Augusta Read Thomas:
Well, John is a friend of mine and maybe three or four years ago, I can't even remember. He wrote to me and said, could he commission a piece? And of course I would never charge a friend for a piece, ever. And so I was like, well, I'd love to write for you. And so we've sort of been ping-ponging back and forth about that I would write a piece for him. And one of the ideas that I was thinking of is to write for a huge collection of almglocken.
Melissa Smey:
Ooh yeah.
Augusta Read Thomas:
Very beautiful tuned cowbells, which take up a lot of real estate, if you have a whole set of two octaves of them. Some of them are quite big and others get much smaller. So we sort of talked about that for a while. And for a while I had all his almglocken in my house, and I was writing the piece with cowbells literally in the guest bedroom. And this, but this was totally unrelated to this project. So we've sort of wanted to work together for a long time. And then when this wonderful project from you and Miller Theatre came up and it turned out that a solo percussion piece made sense, I was like, "wow! This is fortuitous!" because John and I had wanted to work together. So we have a very friendly, open, low-key relationship. We can talk very frankly, I can ask him, "can you play bar 86 or is it too hard?" And he'll get back to me right away and say, "I can play it. And it's really hard, but I'm going to have to memorize it," or something, but he'll tell me.
Melissa Smey:
Yes. Thinking about the nature of your relationship with him, and then this piece, and the collaboration that the two of you have, would you say that this kind of relationship is typical or atypical for you when you're working with musicians, when you're working on other pieces? Is this kind of collaboration, how is the same or different from the, from other projects that you've done?
Augusta Read Thomas:
With all the musicians I have the good fortune to write for, I like to know them as much as I can. Now, many musicians I write for, I never meet. Let's say it's a European orchestra. You can't go meet everybody until you show up for the rehearsal and then the show is two days later. But what I do is I listen to all of their recordings, I try to speak to the conductor, I speak to certain key players, if possible. And yet, with other projects, you can really get to know a person that you're working with very intimately and you might meet for hours or, with a string quartet for multiple hours, or a trio, or an ensemble. So I would say that my career has spanned everything from both extremes and everything in between. In the perfect world, I would love to always be able to work closely with the musician I'm writing for. That's pure gold, as it were. And especially when people can speak very frankly. So I would describe myself as a very present collaborator. Like I respond instantly, I'm right on it. I have an opinion. Like you call me up, I'm going to get back to you the next day. You know, just like, "let's go! Here we go! We're making this thing!" And also very open. Like I'm not defensive. If somebody says this bar is so hard, I'm going to have a heart attack, I want to know that. And then also, you know, just trying to be really positive about people's playing and find their strengths and compliment them. So when you can work with someone sort of on those terms, and also where you can speak very bluntly. So instead of saying, "you know, you're so gifted, and it's absolutely wonderful, and I think your colors are absolutely terrific, and I love letter A, and I think letter B is superb, but you played all the wrong notes at letter D." You know, you're trying to, like, kind of, calm down the situation. It's much better when you just know someone, you say, "you played the wrong notes at letter D" and they're like, "yeah, I know, no problem." Boom, we're done.
Melissa Smey:
Yes.
Augusta Read Thomas:
Get right in there, get the art better, and make it better, and make it better. And it's so much fun.
Melissa Smey:
That's absolutely right. For me, the spirit of collaboration is one of the most important aspects of a relationship. And I don't want to really cooperate with someone. Ideally I want to collaborate. And there's a kind of alchemy that happens when that is going well. And it's been interesting to hear all three of you composers talking about different aspects of the collaborations that you have with the musicians with whom you work.
Augusta Read Thomas:
Yeah. It's really so much fun to collaborate. And, you know, for myself, there's always 20 reasons for a decision. For instance, it might be a harmonic reason, a voice leading reason, a rhythmic reason, a color reason, and so on and so forth. You can explain all the reasons then the player is like, "yeah! That's so cool! I hadn't thought of all that. Totally. Yes, yes, yes. It has to be a C, it can't be a B, even though the B's easier to reach." You know, if there's reasons that are really true, and musical, and deep, and rooted, collaboration's really fun in both directions because the player can start to realize also the labyrinth of compositional decisions that led to a certain thing. Which might mean that they, they play it a little differently. They accent it slightly differently, or they understand the phrase differently, and so on. So I love those kinds of conversations you really get into not just the technical, but why musically it was that way.
Melissa Smey:
Sure.
So there you have it! Collaboration and the role it plays in the creative process. That was Augusta Read Thomas, Courtney Bryan, and Marcos Balter. Join us next week as we continue to follow their creative journey.
Mission: Commission is a production of Miller Theatre at Columbia University.
Major support for Mission: Commission is provided by the Francis Goelet Charitable Lead Trusts and the National Endowment for the Arts. Support for Miller Theatre is provided by the New York State Council on the Arts and the Howard Gilman Foundation. Support for contemporary music is provided by the Aaron Copland Fund for Music and the Amphion Foundation.
This episode was produced by Golda Arthur and me, with Adrienne Stortz, Lauren Cognetti, and Taylor Riccio. Erick Gomez is our sound designer and engineer.
Visit missioncommissionpodcast.com for a full listing of pieces, performers, and recordings included in this and every episode. If you enjoy this podcast, please subscribe wherever you get your podcasts and, even better, leave a review on Apple Podcasts. It really helps the show.
